Curse

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 05:34 AM // 05:34

TURN THE BOT ON AND OFF!

If the situation is advantageous to the bot (which will happen in a match) turn it on. If it is disadvantageous, turn it off. This isn't a case of just "beat the bot/badplayer/badbuild", it is a case of someone having a full on advantage over other people. Have an interrupt bot that you turn on whenever your team is spiking, catch RC/WoH that happens on the spike, heavy pressure. Have a separate bot that will full on catch 1/4 second spells, turn it on only immediately after a monk gets KD'd, its not a bot you just got Qrupted.

New player "Guys we lost a match pretty bad, I went back over it and a couple of their players had flawless skill activation even though the player was always out of position and couldn't do much of anything else, after multiple looks it still looks like a bot."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you're losing to bots...you're bad. Don't blame the bot. ]

New player, "Seriously, that is all you can say? Not, 'I don't believe there's a bot', not 'Can you provide more evidence its a bot', but you acknowledge there are bot and that no one should care? Screw this game and its community, I'm gone"

P.S. Anet read this above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Apparently I can't stress this enough: I want the bots gone too. But there is no sense in getting all worked up about them in the meantime There's not much to do except counter the bots effectively and then laugh at the botters.

Getting worked up over something is the ONLY way Anet will bother to address it. How could you possibly think otherwise.

And you cannot stress it enough, infact your posting hints that you cannot stress it at all.

l Rainy l · Jan 20, 2010, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You still haven't made an argument for how there's a non-egotistical response. At the end of the day, the claim is:

- I am good at it, and I don't cheat.
- Other people are good at it. They don't cheat either.
- There's a reason why that obtains: time limitations. If you could test your RBR bot 24/7, there would probably be a bot. But you can't, and there isn't.

If you could actually read for a second (I know that's hard when you are only concerned with what you have to say) I proposed a non-egotistical response. It's rather simply, really, so let me break it down slowly so you understand this time:

1. The claim you are defending is that there are not bots in RBR. If you can make that argument that RBR is too complex for there to exist an effective bot you win.

2. "I am good at it, and I don't cheat" lends nothing to a concise, appropriate argument. If you can effectively argue that it is too difficult to program a bot for RBR then why would you need to even bring yourself into the equation? If bots can't exist then it is assumed you don't bot; therefore, why make it a point that you don't bot AND you are amazing.

3. For the record, I am in agreement that a bot being successful in the very top of RBR is impossible, but I am disgusted at the way you attempted to defend such a viewpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Complaining about it won't solve matters. You have to adapt.
- It is not impossible to adapt. You know what the bot is going to do. It has limitations. It's bad at splitting. It's bad at energy management. It's bad at dealing with certain hexes.

Actually if enough people complain, it will. The real problem is the people who are complacent with such methods of cheating, and give Anet no incentive to make changes. To draw a real world analogy to our argument:

"Steroids are cheating in baseball, but if a player works hard enough he can be better than someone who takes them, so they aren't really a problem". In the real world, as it is now, anyone who made this argument would be considered an absolute fool. It's a shame such attitudes do not transfer as easily to online games.

Also, to the latter part of your claim: bots have an on and an off switch - they aren't as inflexible as you think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Spitting on other people isn't going to get you anywhere. Neither will complaining about reality.

Really, spitting on people won't get you anywhere - are you that hypocritical? Your entire argument is founded on the belief that if people lose to bots it's THEIR fault for being bad - if that's not spitting on 90% of a player base I don't know what is. If you actually want to be taken seriously on these forums, I suggest you get more attuned with the average player, and dismount from your artificially high horse.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

Your entire argument is founded on the belief that if people lose to bots it's THEIR fault for being bad - if that's not spitting on 90% of a player base I don't know what is.

I guess some people are just used to gimmick builds. Yeah sure there are tons of gimmicks still in Guild Wars. Gimmicks that if you play poorly or don't address correctly you'll lose.

You could somewhat extend this to:

Yeah sure there are tons of bots still in Guild Wars. Bots that if you play poorly or don't address correctly you'll lose.

Of course one of these statements is not quite like the other.

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 06:20 AM // 06:20

@ Rainy: If you'll recall, the OP accused me of cheating. Not by name, but the accusation is still there. (Not the first time, either.) My behavior is at issue here. You can't separate me from the discussion.

If I'm being a jerk about it, consider this: I've been accused of cheating in this forum since 2007. I worked VERY hard to accomplish what I've been able to accomplish in RBR. I find it reprehensible that people that don't know what they're talking about can come in here and slander me without consequences. But that's the Internet and democracy for you.

@ Reverend Dr: You're still missing the point.

You should be worried about the things you can control. Instead, you are whining about things you cannot. We know ANet is glacially slow in responding to these sorts of issues. The bots will be dealt with. Eventually.

In the meantime, you have to help yourself. Change your build and tactics when you know you're going to be facing an interrupt bot. You have that luxury in an AT. Ladder play is more problematic, I'll grant that.

Outrage isn't going to solve anything. We can talk about how bots are unjust, deter new players, and destroy the game all day, but that isn't going to win matches. You should turn your energies to the more productive task of determining how to beat the things, because they aren't going away any time soon. The better teams appear to be winning despite their existence, so clearly a workable solution exists (unless you wish to argue that everyone that won gold capes in the last year was cheating, since Borat claims these bots have been around for a while).

If a workable solution exists, then we're back to: if you lose to bots, you're bad. You would agree with the statement: if you lose to gimmick, you're bad. I fail to see the difference here in practice. Ethically, sure. Functionally? No.

l Rainy l · Jan 20, 2010, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

the OP accused me of cheating.

Sorry, I can't seem to find evidence of such a thing. Maybe I'm tired and missed it, but could you please point out how he exactly involved your personal play in the discussion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You should be worried about the things you can control. Instead, you are whining about things you cannot.

If the world functioned this way, nothing would get done. We understand you are a very straightforward, hard nosed, right-brained kind of person, but believe it or not talking about and protesting issues which are out of one's control is part of being human. Not to get too off topic, but the issue of death is discussed repeatedly even though humans may never gain deeper insight into it. It is harshly unrealistic to expect people to only interact with things they can fully manipulate and understand - living a life in such away is also quite sad.

I did a little rummaging through your old posts Martin, and I have come to the conclusion that the only way you are able to really understand how things work - that is, the "big picture" - is by putting it in direct relation to yourself. This isn't always a bad thing, but what it does is it makes your thinking very narrow minded. Forgive me for paraphrasing but I believe in an earlier post you said something to the gist of: "I am morally against cheating, but if I cannot detect it then it is functionally not cheating". As we can see here, you feel the need to place yourself in relation to the larger issue of cheating. If, to you - in your eyes you are apparently the expert in everything - you cannot see cheating then there is none. Such an idea is so unbelievably backwards I do not know where to begin. Morality and functionality do exist simultaneously and affect one another. Moreover, just because you can't understand something doesn't mean it is unimportant to everyone else - you really aren't that special, and you have demonstrated to most people on this forum that you are intellectually weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

(unless you wish to argue that everyone that won gold capes in the last year was cheating, since Borat claims these bots have been around for a while).

If you knew anything about gvg - which your boastful facade would appear to perpetuate - then you would know that such bots HAVE been around for years. Honestly, I am surprised you were not aware of such information. The difference now, is that they have become increasingly more public.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If a workable solution exists, then we're back to: if you lose to bots, you're bad. You would agree with the statement: if you lose to gimmick, you're bad. I fail to see the difference here in practice. Ethically, sure. Functionally? No.

Bots are against the rules, gimmicks are not. This is just as much of a functional issue as an ethical one. Gimmicks, although generally requiring less input for a given level of success, still functionally involve the player sitting there pressing buttons and making decisions. The difference with a bot, is that it isn't the player using his skills to his advantage - it is a machine. How you do not see this crucial difference is frightening. Perhaps the outcomes of running a gimmick and a bot are the same, but "functionality", as you so put it, is also about inputs.

drkn · Jan 20, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Martin, you're saying you're dragged into the discussion by OP - there's no way you can prove you're not using a bot. no way. either you're superb at RBR as you're trying to say here, as you've wasted long hours to 'scientifically analyse the problem', or you're just telling crap for a mere diversion - hiding a little bot there, behind all those big words and sentences with correct punctutation. saying that you can't be separated from discussion because you have to defend yourself in a cheat-accusation thread in a big, public community forum full of trolls is, well... overkill. maybe just that cap fits for you perfectly. maybe not, but then why are you wasting your time arguing with 'trolls' instead of getting better at the game or doing something productive?

i've been in a party of bots at dragon arena once, they even had some totally clean wins several times in a row. they've never replied in any language, never chatted, never reported me for leeching at a few matches, never failed to win (they've just left after ~47 wins), sometimes won without dying even once. they were from one guild, named almost identically. they haven't even replied to reporting them as bots. if dragon arena can be manipulated, so is RBR.

and it's you who is missing the point all the time. when you have a bot perfectly cutting the edges, you only need to learn how to use dash/ram. it's much easier and comes much faster than learning the whole route. and that IS getting illegal advantage over other players. the only way to compete with it is to be botlike yourself - as in wasted hours to analyse the track instead of happy farming and just running a bot to do most of the hard stuff for you. and even as a pro beetler, there is still room for error when it comes to players - not even the latency, but just being tired, a powerful sneeze, interrupting family, anything distracting. bot is free of it.

it doesn't mean that every run of the bot is prize-winning, of course not. but instead of 100 runs needed to get into top 100 as a pro player, you'll need 20 and will more likely achieve it. i see a difference.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You should be worried about the things you can control.

In this case the only thing I can control is whether or not I play.

If this game has bots, I don't mean hidden bots that only certain coders can create and cannot distribute widely without being found out (VAC), I mean easily accessed and no-punished bots, then I'm not going to play. Furthermore for a company to expect anyone to play in such a game is absurd.

Martin, hey Martin, do I have your attention?!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

If you really don't like bots being in the game, the only thing you would ever have to say in a thread like this is: "I find bots completely unacceptable, I will have nothing to do with a game that won't address them."

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

Forgive me for paraphrasing but I believe in an earlier post you said something to the gist of: "I am morally against cheating, but if I cannot detect it then it is functionally not cheating".

This is frustrating. The point was quite clearly distinct from the argument you are attempting to put into my mouth. What I said was: if the best players can consistently beat the bot, then it's exactly like gimmick. Either way, if you lose then you're bad and it's your fault. Cheating is morally wrong...but if the results it produces are functionally no better than gimmick, then where is the huge issue?

You bring up steroids, and it's an invalid comparison. In principle, the bot used properly would be advantageous...but if that's the case, where are the empirical results to back up the theory? Steroids obviously helped McGwire, Sosa and Bonds to hit more home runs. There's historical evidence (the home run totals of other players that didn't cheat, plus Bonds' pre-steroid numbers) to back the assertion. Where is this evidence in Guild Wars?

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

If you knew anything about gvg - which your boastful facade would appear to perpetuate - then you would know that such bots HAVE been around for years. Honestly, I am surprised you were not aware of such information. The difference now, is that they have become increasingly more public.

I haven't played GvG in ages. Not since the early days of the AT system. So it's easy to understand how I would know the format well, but not be aware of such bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

The difference with a bot, is that it isn't the player using his skills to his advantage - it is a machine. How you do not see this crucial difference is frightening.

Whatever gave you the impression that I don't see that difference? Did I not clearly state that there is an ethical difference between gimmick and bot? The point is that if the bot yields results no better than gimmick (ie: can be successfully countered with tactics and good play), then the bots aren't the huge issue you are making them out to be.

Are you seriously claiming that botters are winning mATs, or at least making the single elimination rounds? If they aren't, then why is this problem so serious? If the best teams are beating the cheaters, then the responsibility for losing to the cheaters still lies on your shoulders.

@ Reverend Dr: I think that's a totally appropriate response to the issue. But I still don't think you get what I'm saying, which is: ANet will deal with the issue eventually, because there are a lot of people that feel the way you do. In the meantime, beat the bots or (as you suggest) don't play.

@ drkn: Why am I arguing? Baseless accusations like this piss me off. It's been going on for years, and it doesn't get any less irritating.

Sure, I can't prove that I don't bot. However, ANet can.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I think that totally ignoring an issue is an appropriate response to the issue.

There is no wait, this has been going on for 2 years.

Beat someone with an unfair advantage is never an excuse.

People don't feel the way that I do either because they don't know, or because people like you trivialize it.

If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In my eyes, in the eyes of everyone viewing this thread that won't stand for bots, you are the same as anyone that is abusing them.

Fril Estelin · Jan 20, 2010, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I'd like to see the OP's evidence that RBR bots do provide such an edge that: 1) if you use one you're very likely to end up in top100; and 2) a significant proportion of the top100 uses bots. I'm actually more concerned about skilled players hijacking the top100 via multiple accounts than bots.

Without evidence, I'll side along Martin Alvito as I'd rather believe people in the clique of Yuri (who I've seen playing, and whose consistent top100 and RBR guide is a living proof that skill is all it takes) and who have good knowledge and experience of RBR. I've experienced first hand how very precise timing of skill use (and luck of no rubberbanding due to lag, and players getting at you) can significantly improve your performance.

*leaves in hope that he can replicate his 482k from Dragon Festival*

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I never called you out in person, Martin. I admit, I have a problem with your guild, as they are known (And acknowledged by WoTu, YMCA, Vent Rage and many other top Snowball guilds) to use pick up bots/DnD bots. (You again said Yuris behaviour, aswell as other guildies running that bot, is botlike)

For starters, if your guild manages to bot snowball, it's only normal I assume that they also bot RBR, for the obvious reason that many of the same people are also in top 100 scores EVERY TIME.

So this can either mean 2 things: Your guild really does have the best of the best of "event-gamers", yet can't accomplish anything in PvP. (HA - GvG) Inactivity I fail to see as a valid reason, since Yuris is on alot of the time, and so are other guildies.

Secondly: I've said this before, but making a private server isn't all that hard. As a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, you can find a guide on youtube. (For Guild Wars)

Tough, you obviously won't have source, I'm saying the basics are there. And a team such as GWLP HAS GOT ACCESS to fully operation private servers. They can rollerbeetle as much as they want, when they want...

So you wouldn't have to spend your "limited" event time making the bot. You could have spend any time between the first year and second year making the bot, as long as you could extract the RBR map...

Thirdly, PLEASE understand WHY I'm calling your guild out: (Going to repeat it again)

-It is KNOWN to bot snowball AT's (Wins with 3x grenth in playoffs with 10-<5 scores, pz)
-It is KNOWN to have multiple people in there who also having seemingly "botlike" scores in RBR

I'm just putting 2 and 2 together here. I KNOW the RBR exists. Given, I have no proof your guild is using that RB bot, but there is no way one could prove it in the first place. All I know is some of your guildies have got acces to advanced bots (If Yuris makes them himself), and thus also a Rollerbeetle bot.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Without evidence,

Damnit, right this moment I'm talking with people that are looking at the code.

A gimmick problem in game balance you say: This isn't good, but in the meantime this is how you work around it.

A problem like bots in the source and development end, you say: This is unacceptable.

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

There is no wait, this has been going on for 2 years.

If this is true and you are so upset about it, then why haven't you been in here every day posting about it?

Worked for getting us better account security, didn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

In my eyes, in the eyes of everyone viewing this thread that won't stand for bots, you are the same as anyone that is abusing them.

The problem is that there are a lot of people that feel the way I do about the bots. They don't generate the same level of outrage as account vulnerabilities. I hate them and I want them to go die, but it's a matter of priorities. I'd rather have balanced skills than a bot-free game, given the apparent track record of the bots.

@ Borat: Sorry, but you're just wrong about Snowball ATs. It really is tactics.

NoConnection · Jan 20, 2010, 07:42 AM // 07:42

you said that u dont really want the prize for 100 somewhere in here, u want people to see your nickname and tell that "you are good", well guess what you have to be FIRST for people to remember you NOT 60-100th ... And btw i think a big part of the GW community already knows you from your whiny threads about bots in snowball ats and rollerbeatle races
so why bother?

Fril Estelin · Jan 20, 2010, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Damnit, right this moment I'm talking with people that are looking at the code.

Are you talking to people in RBR top100? If not, knowing the code improves performance will not mean what the OP implied (i.e. that botting is likely to put you in top100 and most top100ers do it).

Quote:

A gimmick problem in game balance you say: This isn't good, but in the meantime this is how you work around it.

A problem like bots in the source and development end, you say: This is unacceptable.

I don't think that's what most people disagreeing with the OP are saying here. (surely not me) One can hate bots (and botters) and want things to be done about them, while still acknowledging that there's little that Anet can do. If someone find an easy workaround for stopping current bots, a new version will bypass it, and the cycle continues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I assume that they also bot RBR, for the obvious reason that many of the same people are also in top 100 scores EVERY TIME.

Could it be that they're skilled at RBR? Yuri's guide to RBR wasn't created by a bot, it simply showed his skills (he clearly said why he created the guide: so that there's more competition and more fun).

You're starting to launch personal attacks. Not only is it against the forum rules, but it's pointless: why should we take your word (and the one of those you know) against others'?

kedde · Jan 20, 2010, 07:53 AM // 07:53

You don't think its more of a problem when the entire enemy team has access to your teams party screen with bonus information such as weapon sets, skill usage, easy targeting etc.?
Its very likely more can be extracted that at least I don't know off yet.
Coding of every skill ID into the bot so it will perfectly prioritize isn't troubling enough to cause an outrage.

How is this not a bigger issue than completely random things like minor bug fixes in obscure places?

Toning the problems down has been proven through empirical testing to fail extraordinarily as a method when working with Anet, therefore people with experience on the matter are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing mad 9001 because they're obviously entitled to, and because its the only way to catch some attention.

Whether or not bitching about it here will actually help doesn't matter the least, its just another try at something seemingly hopeless.
Simply discarding complaints about something legit with nothing else than the stupid saying people are bad if they don't just work around it perfectly doesn't get through properly.
People are obviously trying to work out methods for how to beat botters, that's pretty straight forward logic, but saying so is just retarded when you imply that people are whining exclusively.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Edit: You can always blank out the names if you want. I'm not using his full name anyways...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I'd rather have balanced skills than a bot-free game, given the apparent track record of the bots.

@ Borat: Sorry, but you're just wrong about Snowball ATs. It really is tactics.

I'm pretty sure our guild was amongst the top. Are you hereby claiming your guild, once again, has such crazy tactics it can outplay top 20-50 GvG guilds, yet has no significant meaning in GvG?

And what are these magical tactics you speak off? Last time I checked, winning snowball arenas STILL only comes down to picking up the relic faster than your opponent. I mean, you can twist it, you can turn it, but at the end of the day, your guildies always outpicked up our guildies... We would have strategical snares, be spamming interrupts, would bodyblock, whereas sometimes your guild would have no notice of relics spawning.

Yet 2 of your guildies (Given ice fort) managed to "out-pick-up" 7 of our guildies. If you call that tactics, ok...

Your guild definatly wasn't bad, but it seems to be excempt from any form of limitations other guilds aren't... Having a guild beat another guild being grenth in Play-Off was close to never seen, your guild DESTROYED (10-2, 10-0, 10-4) WoTu, Vent rage, YMCA every time being grenth.

Claiming to be good is one thing, your guild was simply bending "the possible" in Guild Wars. And SOLELY because your guild always managed to pick up faster than any of the rest. I admit I used a pick-up bot myself once, to see wether or not your guildies could beat it, and they did. Yuris has no problem out-picking up MY bot. (It was a 50-50 scenario) Yet other players can MAYBE steal the relic from me 1 in every 15-20 tries. (You simply CAN'T compete with direct server pings, just like Yuris uses aswell)

And I'dd rather have NO PvP than PvP getting farmed by bots... The ONLY reason people aren't using those bots in mAt's, is for the obvious reason that it would be on observer, and would get massivly reported. This doesn't change the fact that the bot itself still means "autowin" for any decent team.

If 2 teams of equal skill (Like in most top 100 gvg's) fight, the one with the interrupt bot WILL win, unless they fubar... Being able to interrupt Infuse Health, WoH, Patient Spirit, Spirit Bond and RC is NOT something you can coop with. And there's also a difference with the old hero rupt bots and the actual "bot". Heroes would RANDOMLY get a spell, and could actually miss interrupts. Also getting interrupted on 1/4's was something that happened rarely, but it still did, and we've wiped because of that. (Infuse Health often is a LAST RESOURCE HEAL, if that gains interrupted, it usually means a death -90% of the time)
These bots can interrupt ANY spell, if they want. The more advanced bots, such as the one within my grasp, allows for ever more dynamic set-ups.
There's bots that calculate energy (They count every spell enemy monks use, aswell as regen/degen, and give a pretty accurate estimation of enemy monks energy), and will Pleak spells (1/4's if they have to) when the monk swapped to high energy set and/or is low on energy.

There's bots that U can set every skill U want interrupted on. You can litteraly just "check" on the skills you don't want going off: "Bsurge, RC, Guardian, WoH, Bflash, Blurred Vision", and the bot will get every single one of those, given he has interrupts recharged and people don't cast at the same time. (He's obviously still stuck to being able to cast 1 spell at a time)

Thinking of it now, it probably would even be that hard to program Tease/CoF on that bar, and make it interrupt multiple spells. (If 2 ppl cast a spell at the same time next to eachother, it'll rupt both of them with CoF/Tease)

My point is, the options with bots are endless, and not something "trivial" you can ignore, or overcome. We, neither me or Reverend or anyone for that matter, never claimed PvE'ers are going to win mAT'es with the aid of bots. Our claim is that bots give you such a significant advantage, they can pretty much guarantee you a win, if you play just as good, or only a bit worse than your opposing team.

It's the same in RBR. I'm CONVINCED that Yuris, yourself, and other guildies are GOOD at rollerbeetle racing. Because you need to be GOOD in order to make a GOOD bot (with good pathing), but they're still botting it nontheless.

Getting 480K scores is something that happens every now and then. A REAL human can't cut corners perfectly and/or time his speedboost perfectly every time, just as much as a human can't reliably interrupt 1/4s spells, yet the top 100 RBR scoretable is FILLED with guildies and friends of Yuris who seem to poop out these scores like there's no tomorrow.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 07:59 AM // 07:59

If you are not outraged by bots, then you are condoning bots. There are no "ifs" "ands" "buts" or other conditionals.

What do you want me to do? "Just wait?" I've been 'just waiting' for over 3 years.

Why am I still here? I had a lot of fun between the summer of 2005 and the summer of 2006; and I miss it. Enough fun to still warrant arguing about this shit in the summer of 2010.

Fril Estelin · Jan 20, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

It's counter-productive to fight over a principle on these issues unless you can show the extent of the damage these bots are making. (and it's pueril to target specific people while you could simply talk about the issue without talking about the people)

Yes bots are bad, but can you show that in RBR they're the reason why you do or do not end up in top100?

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Yes bots are bad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

If you are not outraged by bots, then you are condoning bots.

Congratulations